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May. 19

High School Sports

Private schools could be barred from NCHSAA

Cardinal Gibbons vs. Hunt (Nov. 18, 2011)

Cardinal Gibbons during tonights game.Hunt defeats Cardinal Gibbons 31-17 in Wilson North Carolina.

By Nick Stevens

Published: 2012-04-17 13:33:00
Updated: 2012-04-18 08:40:46

Apr 18, 2012

Parochial schools, private schools with a standard curriculum that includes religion, may not be welcomed much longer in the N.C. High School Athletic Association.

The NCHSAA received two proposed amendments to the Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws from member schools. The proposals were endorsed by six schools - Salisbury, West Rowan, South Rowan, East Rowan, North Rowan and Jesse Carson - meaning the members of the NCHSAA must vote on them.

Right now, the NCHSAA allows public and non-boarding parochial high schools to join the Association as long as it is accredited by the State Department of Public Instruction and abides by the NCHSAA rules. The proposed change would only allow schools that are "funded as a 'free public school'" to join the NCHSAA.

VOTE: Should parochial schools play in NCHSAA?

If the proposal passes, Charlotte Catholic, Bishop McGuinness and Cardinal Gibbons would be removed from the NCHSAA. In addition, Christ The King High School, which has been approved to join the NCHSAA next year, would also be removed.

In an e-mail to parents, Cardinal Gibbons Principal Jason Curtis said the proposal was unexpected.

"Cardinal Gibbons High School has been an exemplary member of the NCHSAA, and we intend to do everything possible to maintain our membership in the Association," Curtis wrote.

On Tuesday, the Diocese of Raleigh, the Diocese of Charlotte and the schools impacted by the proposal sent a joint response to the NCHSAA membership to present their side of the debate.

"While our schools do not have established geographic boundaries, we do deal with other factors that create boundaries for our system. Experience has shown that distance and transportation are two major factors for parents in school selection," the response read.

A student-athlete who attends one of these schools is not allowed to receive financial aid of any kind. If financial aid is given, the student is ineligible to participate in sports. In addition, a student who transfers from an NCHSAA member school to one of the member parochial schools is ineligible to participate for one year.

"When our system was admitted in the NCHSAA, we agreed to a transfer rule policy in order to address this issue. For the past 50 years, this policy, unique to our schools, has served to level the playing field," the response to the NCHSAA membership continued.

There was another amendment proposed regarding parochial schools in 1986 that was rejected by the membership.

Charter schools also face changes

A second proposal involves public charter schools.

Currently, charter schools who field athletic teams are eligible to be assigned to a conference by the NCHSAA. If they qualify for the state playoffs, they participate like any other team in the membership. A proposed addition to the NCHSAA Bylaws would send charter schools to a state playoff of their own.

There are about 20 charter schools in the NCHSAA today, all of them are 1-A schools.

Principals at all member schools have until Tuesday, Apr. 24 at noon to vote on both changes. The results of the vote will be delivered to the NCHSAA Board of Directors at its annual meeting beginning on May 1, in Chapel Hill. In order to pass the amendment, there must be at least a three-fourths majority vote.

If either proposal is passed it would take place at the start of the 2013-2014 school year in conjunction with the next realignment.

Copyright 2012 by Capitol Broadcasting Company. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
COMMENTS

72 Comments


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Amen to the7ofus. Instead of the Us vs. Them mentality we all need to work together and ensure all kids, public or private, have the opportunity to play competitive teams. I'm not sure how the "defined geographic area" plays out since all the parents I know are not willing to drive an unreasonable distance and pay close to $10K a year for the sports program? That is crazy. The vast majority of the kids who attend live within a relatively close driving distance of the school, since the parents have to commit to getting them there and back every day.
doyourhomework321
April 18, 2012 6:50 a.m.
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Growing up in Ohio there were a lot of Parochial schools playing in the same division as the largest public high schools and it made both types of schools get better in order to compete. Private schools were also allowed to offer athletic scholarships to students from any geographical area, all the student had to do was get themselves to school. Nobody belly-ached about it and state championships were competitive and pretty evenly distributed. Moeller(private) and Massilon(public) shared the lead in state championships.

The theme with those against Private high schools competing in the NCHSAA seems like the problem with society today. Instead of trying to get better and competing, eliminate the competition. With the "reassinment" in the Wake County public schools now, you can bet there will be both recruiting and an "unfair advantage" some schools will have. There is too much pressure and corruption in the recruiting of High School atheletes to think otherwise.
the7ofus
April 18, 2012 2:06 a.m.
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I can understand why some people are upset about this. It's because their kids attend these private schools.
TennisFTW
April 18, 2012 1:28 a.m.
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Well, good night, with this. Gibbons competes in a conference where the schools have defined districts, none of which are in Wake County, which apparently has other measures for school enrollment that don't involve adherence to a defined district. I believe that would be an exception to policies across the state. That needs to be examined in terms of competitive equality, too, but doesn't alter the fact that parochial schools don't belong in the NCHSAA.
almyatt2004
April 18, 2012 12:12 a.m.
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By your same logic, what if a student playing at Northern Durham was attracted by, say, Southern's success, assuming they had some. Would that be ok then because Southern is not a private school?
cghsmom
April 18, 2012 12:12 a.m.
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Wow...some of these comments seem juvenile. Please do your research. I have two children at Gibbons and they play 3 sports between them. I don't know any parents who chose to send their child to Gibbons for any sports program, period. It is a huge financial and time commitment, but it is an outstanding school. As far as the argument of being able to draw from a large geographical area...here in Raleigh we have choice for schools not based on your geographical area. With magnet schools, etc., neighborhood schools are no longer the norm. School assignments are not consistent throughout the state. Do the more affluent Charlotte neighborhood schools have an athletic advantage over the inner city neighborhood schools? Many would say yes. If Gibbons is booted out, we would lose our ability to compete in athletics...there are simply not enough other private schools our size.
doyourhomework321
April 17, 2012 11:55 p.m.
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I don't think it's up to you to say what I do or don't understand. I do understand Gibbons has students from across a rather large metropolitan area, unlike the public schools that it competes against. That's enough statitics and logic for this situation.

What are you talking about "if Gibbons let a public school student play?" Gibbons is a private school and anybody who plays for them is playing for a private school. You've got some logic to learn as well as basic common sense.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 11:52 p.m.
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You do not understand how students are enrolled at Gibbons. You have not understood the restrictions of a transfer student. (Are there restrictions public school to public school transfers like the Catholic schools have?) If Gibbons let a public school student play, they would lose the season I believe. You are ignoring the fact about selection and enrollment. Not to be rude, your arguments aren't based on reality. You have got this idea stuck in your head that a bigger N equals better sports teams. ONLY IF ONE WERE RECRUITING FOR SPORTS. You are ignoring math, statistics and logic.

And if that is the basis of the argument Rowan is making...Well, whoever is making the argument ought to ask for their money back from the college that taught them statistics. They obviously don't get it.
officebox
April 17, 2012 11:12 p.m.
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My argument hasn't changed. Gibbons draws its enrollment from a different set of circumstances than the public school with which it competes. There are a lot more folks than the ones in Rowan County who see the clarity of this point.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 10:58 p.m.
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You talk about statistics and logic and make the statement that there are never any new players on any of the teams? Wonder how well that contention would stand up to examination?
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 10:54 p.m.
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"almyatt2004" I've read everyone of these comments. No matter what someone says to you, you always have a but, what if, etc etc. Or you change your argument. For some reason, you don't want Gibbons in your conference. I assume they are in your conference. We played them and beat them. You always have good and bad teams. You seem to be looking for an excuse to eliminate an opponent instead of getting better yourselves. Players should focus on getting better. Coaches should focus on getting better. Seems they are just focusing on making excuses.
cleatz
April 17, 2012 10:54 p.m.
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"You appear to be purposely obtuse." And you seem to be ignoring the fact that a player CAN NOT transfer to Gibbons without sitting out an entire year. Plus the fact that it just doesn't happen. There are never new players on any of the teams.

Someone needs to school Rowan in statistics and logic. It really makes my head hurt. If every school could cherry pick students based on athletic ability, then the argument might make sense that the largest area would give someone an advantage. That isn't what happens.
officebox
April 17, 2012 10:39 p.m.
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To an extent, Gibbons is like schools such as Oak Hill and DeMatha. They are attracting outstanding athletes because of their success and there are no geographic boundaries preventing them from enrolling as is the case with opublic schools. Driving to Gibbons is a little different from a family moving to another school district.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 10:38 p.m.
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"A football player at Northern Durham could go to Cardinal Gibbons. "

Not true. If someone transfers into Gibbons from a public school they have to sit out a year. I believe it's unusual for someone to transfer in as a junior or senior because the school is packed. Maybe if they are coming from out of state at another Catholic school they would squeeze them in. But the main point is coming from another school to play at Gibbons - sit out a year.

Majority of students come from the K-8 Catholic schools. I promise you the distribution of athletic and academic ability among Catholics is the same as any population. Haha - believe me, they are not all gifted as you mentioned earlier.

Actually this new process where kids can select their public school in Wake County is going to lead to the thing you think is happening at Gibbons. Talk to any soph or junior at a public school that plays football - they are all talking about moving around to create a power school.
officebox
April 17, 2012 10:31 p.m.
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Success breeds success and if a highly-motivated player in Northern Durham's district is attracted by Gibbons' success, what's stopping him or a player at Green Hope or a player at South Granville from enrolling at Gibbons? You appear to be purposely obtuse. Players at those schools can't go play at Millbrook can they? Can you see the difference? Put pins in a map for every player on Gibbons roster and see how large an area it is. There's no public school drawing from an area that large. I think it's to the credit of the Rowan schools for addressing a competitive situation that's apples and oranges.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 10:31 p.m.
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If a Southern Vance player really wanted to play at Oxford Webb, the family could (and families do) move into that school district and sit out a year to play, or transfer to Northern Vance sit out a year, and then play. Just like the student from Northern Durham could transfer to Gibbons, sit out a year, and then play.
cghsmom
April 17, 2012 10:26 p.m.
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I don't deny that. But that is where the one-year suspension comes in. The student may transfer, but he cannot play until the suspension is over. The NCHSAA and the member schools approved this before, so I don't know why it is being questioned now. Nothing has changed since then other than Gibbons winning a few state titles.
studentathlete
April 17, 2012 10:21 p.m.
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Again, what unfair competitive advantage? There is no inherent strength to be had by having kids from different neighborhoods or even counties on a team. What can you cite, other than the success of the schools, that there is an unfair advantage? On that theory, Duke or UNC be barred from the ACC on the theory that they must have an unfair advantage? The Rowan argument depends on the false assumption that the parochial schools draw from a larger pool of potential students, but since they don't (and can't) recruit, and there are substantial barriers to admission, that hasn't been shown. There is nothing honorable about the Rowan motion.
CaryFather
April 17, 2012 10:20 p.m.
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I think it comes down to success creating success. A football player at Northern Durham could go to Cardinal Gibbons. He can't go to another public school outside his district. Is that so difficult to understand? Southern Vance can't enroll players from Oxford Webb's district. Theoretically, Gibbons can.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 10:12 p.m.
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I don't think this competitive advantage exists. You talk of attracting students from multiple counties. What difference does it make what county students live in? The schools that Gibbons competes against are the same size, so there are an equal number of students that can try out for sports. It's not like Gibbons has more to choose from. The one-year suspension rule was approved by all member schools because it was deemed adequate to prevent students from transferring to Gibbons for sports.
studentathlete
April 17, 2012 9:59 p.m.
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and not sure of the tuition now. There is a Catholic In-Parish Tuition rate and an non-Catholic rate. The school when my daughter was there was only about 80% Catholic. Not sure if non-Catholics are eligible for financial aid.
cghsmom
April 17, 2012 9:57 p.m.
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almyatt2004> I see your point but not sure of the percentage of kids from outside Wake County playing sports at Gibbons. There are also fewer kids from even the outer lying Catholic schools coming to Gibbons because of cost and and distance, especially with gas prices they way they are. Also, if I was a parent who was really focused on my kid in athletics (as some parents I have met are) I would have moved into a preferred school assignment area to have my kid go to a particular school if I felt it would benefit her athletically (as some public school parents do. I have met them, I work in the public schools.) When I was in public school in Wake County there were people who found ways to come to my school who were not in that assigned district even. So you can forget the geographical boundary. And it is possible, though difficult, for students outside Wake County to come to school in Wake County. I have had parents tell me they paid a "fee" to WCPSS for their kid to come to school here
cghsmom
April 17, 2012 9:54 p.m.
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I'm sure Gibbons attracts a lot of highly-motivated, gifted students and they receive excellent instruction. There are the real costs of tuition (which are what, about $8,000 a year?) plus the taxes that support public education that Gibbons families pay but don't utilize. I understand there are students there who are not into athletics but what does that have to do with the competitive advantage that the school has of attracting athletes from a multi-county area, which the public schools they compete against in the current alignment do not have. The positions I'm seeing tend to appeal to emotion and are not dealing with the competitive advantages Gibbons has. When you're successful, people are going to look at the reasons why and if there are advantages that you have that others do not, they are going to try and level the playing field. That's what's happening. That's the crux of the crusade as it appears to me.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 9:38 p.m.
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almyatt2004> Studentathlete is correct. Much of it had to do with size. CGHS is only high school, where as many parochial schools are K-12, meaning they have a much smaller student body at the high school level. Gibbons wanted more competition. Not sure how many students are in some of these outward-lying schools but Gibbons is only half the size of all the public high schools in Wake County.
cghsmom
April 17, 2012 9:31 p.m.
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almyatt2004> My daughter graduated the year before they joined the NCSHAA. If she had been there when they had that rule, she would not have been able to play ball there. We would have had to do club/travel sports outside of school. We would have forfeited the sports for the academic and all the other wonderful opportunities Gibbons has to offer. People are not just sending their kids there to play sports.
cghsmom
April 17, 2012 9:24 p.m.
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I think it is legitimate to ask if there is an unspoken agenda behind the motion. The revised version of this article suggests the motion is specifically directed at parochial schools. What role does bias against religious schools play? Many of the posts in support of the motion suggest blind bigotry and evidence an amazing amount of misinformation in the process. I originally thought it was just poor losers, but I wonder if it isn't something worse.
CaryFather
April 17, 2012 9:18 p.m.
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There's no hidden agenda. There's a motion to oust the parochial schools.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 8:32 p.m.
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In Pa. Catholic schools in the Philly area have their own league (as well as the public schools) from which they qualify for the PIAA playoffs(same as NCHSAA)...in the suburbs Catholic and private schools have been competing in the same leagues for decades...I don't see what all the fuss is about...unless there is a hidden agenda here....
teammugs
April 17, 2012 8:28 p.m.
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I believe it had to do with size. Gibbons is much larger than most of the other schools in the independent school association. The size meant stronger athletics and uneven competition across the conference. Joining the NCHSAA enabled Gibbons to compete against schools of a similar size.
studentathlete
April 17, 2012 7:55 p.m.
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Why did Gibbons leave the independent school association?
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 7:44 p.m.
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almyatt2004 - Maybe up North they have separate leagues. Until the late 1980s I believe the Catholic population in North Carolina was only 3%, which is why there aren't that many schools to form a league I guess. It also explains why people drive long distances. Up North there seems to be a Catholic school in every town. The post that mentioned the $500,000 house. That person pays property tax. That property tax goes to fund the public school. That public school may have a marching band. Gibbons does not. They have a lockers for their athletes. Gibbons does not. Some of them have TV studios and amazing a/v equipment. Gibbons does not. And the list goes on. Let's say 1000 families go to Gibbons. All that tax money - they get none of it. Everyone else does. And here's the kicker. If every one of those kids and kids in private schools switched to public next year? how many portables would have to be built?
officebox
April 17, 2012 7:24 p.m.
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Ok then what geographic boundary does Cardinal have. What areas can't they pull from? I know they have students from several neighboring counties.
Sports Lover
April 17, 2012 7:13 p.m.
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Don't some states have separate leagues for Catholic schools?
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 7:11 p.m.
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Well said officebox
CGHSmom26
April 17, 2012 7:10 p.m.
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I've never understood the argument that there is a wider geographic area to pull kids from. No one has ever said, "When I grow up I want to play sports at Gibbons." It is just not a sports school that kids go to.

If it's sour grapes about losing, I have to say it comes down to the kids and the coaches. Gibbons plays teams that are bigger than them every year. On paper Gibbons should lose. But they don't. The real fact is the kids are coachable. They respect authority, they listen, they practice. A lot of the kids there have parents that have sacrificed a lot. They come from homes that value hard work, that respect authority. If you ask anyone who has played Gibbons they'll tell you the kids never take a cheap shot, never use foul language, are always respectful of the other players.

The free public education part? Everyone there PAYS TAXES to go to a public school and doesn't go. Public schools use their money and supply no services to them.
officebox
April 17, 2012 7:03 p.m.
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Due to the financial aid, her daughter does not participate in NCHSAA sanctioned athletics.

Other schools have large numbers of state championships as well, including Independence, Broughton, and Green Hope, to name a few. Some are doing well right now, others did well in the past. Is it not possible for a school to have a multiple years of strong athletic performance?
studentathlete
April 17, 2012 7:03 p.m.
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How can all of the state championships be accounted for if the geographic boundary is not the reason?
Sports Lover
April 17, 2012 6:58 p.m.
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So if CGHSmom's daughter were an athlete, the school would have to forfeit everything she's played in?
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 6:46 p.m.
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I always thought the private schools were just whipping posts for the public schools. I guess they can win if they stay in A or AA; Now we have the special programs (Word of God, and others) but to my knowledge they do not meet NCHSAA requirements, and they only have one sport. The real stupid thing was splitting the NCHSAA into 8 groups instead of 4 (I think this helped the private schools win some). Go Back to A, AA, AAA, and AAAA (if needed make a AAAAA), But 8 is ridiculous.
dlnorri
April 17, 2012 6:46 p.m.
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Limited financial aid is available, but students who receive financial aid are ineligible to participate in athletics. The schools follow these rules because if they don't, they know they will not be allowed to participate in NCHSAA athletics.
studentathlete
April 17, 2012 6:40 p.m.
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Financial aid? Hmmmm
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 6:36 p.m.
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Many of the public schools draw kids from all over the county too...Raleigh, Cary, etc. Magnet Schools like Enloe have kids coming from all over, as did Broughton for their IB program, and SE Raleigh for their magnet offerings. daydreamnn--not all students who go there live in $500K houses and drive $75K cars. My daughter was fortunate enough to be able to attend Catholic school including Gibbons K-12 because of financial aid. It was a better fit for her, we avoided the whole reassignment mess, and did not have to be distracted by the issues and rigamaroll in the public schools--especially at the high school level. I drove her to school every day in my old vehicle that I am still driving, while working two jobs to support her, and pay rent every month. Many CGHS families make many sacrifices for their students to go there because its a great school with many wonderful opportunities, not just because of athletics.
cghsmom
April 17, 2012 6:33 p.m.
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The proposals at hand deal with private and charter schools but I can see where magnets and open enrollment schools could achieve unfair advantages.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 6:22 p.m.
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It doesn't mean a disadvantage if all competing schools are drawing from specified areas. In the case of Cardinal Gibbons, they are drawing students from a much larger area -- Raleigh, Cary, Durham, etc. -- however far away they or their parents are willing to drive.

That's the point. It's not an equitable competitive situation between public schools and private schools. Gibbons has its programs going and is attracting athletes from a large geographic area.

I was an athletic director at a private school for six years and I know how this situation works.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 6:13 p.m.
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It is not logical to assume that drawing from a specified geographical area means a disadvantage. It might if the private schools were able to recruit "all stars," but they are not. If you are really arguing that the size of the "pool" of kids is determinative, private schools are arguably at a disadvantage because their "pool" of available kids is limited to those who can pass the entrace exam, whose parents are willing and able to pay for their education, and whose families want them to have a private (in this case Catholic) education. Sadly, this appears driven by poor losers, as evidenced by some of the comments below.
CaryFather
April 17, 2012 5:15 p.m.
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Should have been banned long ago.
beckerunc
April 17, 2012 5:12 p.m.
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@americaneel You say Gibbons spent the money on its athletic facilities to attract more students, when in fact, the new stadium had to be constructed so that Gibbons would meet the capacity requirements to be allowed into the 3A classification. Obviously the Gibbons stadium doesn't look "run down" like some public school stadiums; it's brand new. Did you expect them to build a "run down" stadium?

@allmyatt2004 It is true that private schools don't draw from a specified district, but not all public schools do either. For instance, magnet and IB programs allow students from a much larger area to attend public schools other than the ones to which they are assigned. Also, new assignment policies in Wake County allow students to choose their school. Does this mean all the Wake County schools should be prohibited from participating in the NCHSAA as well?
studentathlete
April 17, 2012 4:56 p.m.
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Independence had a magnet program which I understand enhanced their pool of athletes but stay on topic. That's not the issue here.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 4:36 p.m.
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almyatt2004 - really? Is that why Independence ran off 7 straight titles in football?
teammugs
April 17, 2012 4:34 p.m.
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The real issue here is that private schools don't draw from a specified district as public schools do. The private schools can essentially attract all-star teams from a large number of school districts in a metropolitan area.
almyatt2004
April 17, 2012 4:32 p.m.
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      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:37 PM
  46. highschoolot: Story as Millbrook wins the the 4-A dual team tennis state championship: http://t.co/M3ZKpP78Ju
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:37 PM
  48. highschoolot: Story from @ZachMayoHSOT as East Chapel Hill wins the girls LAX state title: http://t.co/cwetalWkEp
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:37 PM
  50. NickStevensHSOT: Congrats to Knightdale on their 3rd straight boys track state championship! http://t.co/YedG62MBtl
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:35 PM
  52. highschoolot: Slideshow from today's girls LAX state championship as East Chapel Hill takes the title: http://t.co/TPi9o7cVij
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:29 PM
  54. ZachMayoHSOT: You're gonna want to stick around for the story from that one. It's coming soon.
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:24 PM
  56. highschoolot: Knightdale wins third consecutive boys track title http://t.co/t9C6egpnKu
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:17 PM
  58. highschoolot: Shelby downs Carrboro in 2-A tennis finals http://t.co/8H7f6YOkJI
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:17 PM
  60. highschoolot: Gibbons rolls to third straight 3-A tennis championship http://t.co/1h1JVEDueJ
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:17 PM
  62. highschoolot: Here's a slideshow from the 4-A track &amp; field state championships: http://t.co/O6QheOYcZT
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:14 PM
  64. ZachMayoHSOT: Apex fans celebrate the championship win. They were loud all day. http://t.co/CxISl0FZZ7
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:12 PM
  66. ZachMayoHSOT: Here are your 2013 Boys LAX Champion Apex Cougars http://t.co/PUZHaUROXW
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:10 PM
  68. highschoolot: RT @ZachMayoHSOT: In case you were wondering... Yes, there was a Gatorade shower.
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 6:07 PM
  70. highschoolot: ALERT: Derek Sweet's goal with 1 second left lifts Apex to the boys LAX state title http://t.co/3pwQylL879
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:52 PM
  72. highschoolot: Boys Lacrosse State Championship: Apex's Derek Sweet scores with 1 second left! Apex wins 12-11. #hsotscores
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:51 PM
  74. highschoolot: RT @ZachMayoHSOT: Unbelievable. Apex's Derek Sweet scores with 1 second left on the clock. Apex wins the boys state championship 12-11.
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:50 PM
  76. highschoolot: Wow. Overtime looking possible in boys LAX final. Follow @ZachMayoHSOT for updates.
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:44 PM
  78. highschoolot: RT @ZachMayoHSOT: Lake Norman ties the game at 11-11 behind a goal from Eddie Hendrickson. 1:02 left to play in regulation.
      — Saturday, May 18, 2013 5:44 PM
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